Organoid LQ

ORGANOID INFORMATION
Name: Ocelot
Organoid Level: 0
Organoid Points: 0

Repair: 0
Stamina: 0
Power:
Speed:
Agility:

Organoid Genus: Canine

Description:
Ocelot is large four-legged mechanised creature that resembles a canine. He is black in color, with grey and silver accents along the joints and limbs. His chest area is gold, and his eyes shine bright red. His head looks like it has two large horns pointing backwards, with a clear thin film over his face, giving off a glassy look. He can reveal a long wiry tongue that he often uses to hack into any technological system by surging his innate energy. His tail is a long wiry metal appendage that splits into three prongs at the very end, which are sharp and can strengthen to form a dagger-like base. As a hunter, its limbs hide numerous blades, often at the back, though this blades are thought to have been surgically enhanced after his revival in the Institute. Overall, his full size resembles an adult tiger, with the exception of its tail that can extend up to 3 meters.

Ocelot:

Ability:

Return to the Origin

As an organoid that was hailed as the ultimate hunter of his era in the ancient times, Ocelot’s ability revolves around being able to subdue the prey even before the clash. Due to the anti-matter energy nature of Ocelot, he can syphon the energy about him and create an area of effect where the energy continuously surges, creating a temporal shift of energy particles. Doing such, all conditions are neutralised to their raw potentials. This means that any alterations of the raw condition is erased from existence by the anti-matter energy, such as negating elemental effects as well as technological enhancements. Everything simply returns to its raw state.

When fused with a zoid, Ocelot’s ability is thrown out throughout the entire field, creating a shift of the energy particles within the space. Upon doing so, all conditions are neutralised to their raw forms – elemental, technological, and unnatural enhancements slip into a disrupted state, thus rendering them unusable throughout the duration. This results in the removal of ALL FORMS of enhancements, reductions, or unnatural improvements (however it is called) throughout the duration.
This affects everything and everyone, including the zoid this organoid is fused with.

Alright. So, I should point out the fact that we have NO Moderators yet for approval. That's something to happen later on. That said: I been looking this over and here are my thoughts on the ability.

Interrupting is a cool idea, however, there are some issues:

• Preventing any Charge Feats for the round of use. Annoying, but I like it.
  
• Negating Coatings is a "No" period as these are passive and not activated whatsoever.
  
• Negating Resistance given by NanoTech for a single round seems alright.
  
• Blocking Passive bonuses from an opponent's Organoid is a "No", period.
  
• Preventing the use of the opponent's Organoid's ACTIVATED ability for that round? Seems alright to me.
  
• Making an Organoid's previously running ability (effectively) ended is a "No".
  
• Forcing an opponent's Organoid to unfuse is a "No". Period.
  
• Organoids are limited to an ability with two effects.
  

I am 100% against anything that unfuses someone else's Organoid and that will not be changed. That said, it is a cool idea and I would LOVE to see this balanced a bit. I like the idea that your Zoid is just as hindered.

Now, as I said, we do not have Mods yet to e ale to approve your LQ, so don't rush. Lets hammer this out and make a really cool, unique and balanced partner for you.

Sounds cool.

Hmmm... Well I did name all those stuff to be more precise and so that we can work it out. So judging from your suggestion, I drew up another list to clarify it.

The resulting effect is:
- No to anything that needs "charging", "activation", "even nanotech resistance thingy"
- Return to "Base Damage" only for all assaults (aka no elementals; for certain guns with elemental attribute, they just become solid damage)

What can still happen:
- Previously in-effect noid ability will not be stopped; but will have a restriction... like say up to 10%-15% only in either their reductions or increase effects. (coz the idea is supposed to be a return to the original or raw power, but since it would be too godmoddy to force on other noids, then maybe a hindrance to their output? Also, this would make it a little even when other aftermarket purchases effects that needed charge or activation are counted out for the round).
- No noid forced ejection.
- Coating and Treatments are allowed since, they don't need activation.
- All parties involved are affected, including my own zoid.
- Noids can still give their passive bonuses.


That said, since the passive bonuses won't be affected, Ocelot won't be forced ejected after the end of the round anymore, since it'll follow the rulings for stamina?

Also, yeah, my idea was to make a sort of "stalemate" type noid.

Any thoughts?

As a quick question, does this apply to say...evolution weapons, since they technically are treated as becoming part of the zoid, so in the hypothetical world, that simply reduce them to the standard damage (exclusive of proficiency bonus) and take out things like organoid stat boosts, guardian angel, lock on system etc.

Additionally, if used against an opponent with an organoid, is that intended to disable an ability that may be 'ongoing' (ie lasts multiple rounds) or block the ability to activate said ability?

But with the previous 'ability effects Ocelot itself', wouldn't the ability preclude ocelots ability? (like the idea, a 'noid hunter 'noid, just the wording sounds like it'd be a self-defeating ability (absolutely MAD! MAD I say!)

tl;dr
"Does it this"?
Really like it!
Wish I could approve

Lol. Okay, I'll do this point per point.

As a quick question, does this apply to say...evolution weapons, since they technically are treated as becoming part of the zoid, so in the hypothetical world, that simply reduce them to the standard damage (exclusive of proficiency bonus) and take out things like organoid stat boosts, guardian angel, lock on system etc.

They will just be restricted to base damage, unless they have "charge" or "activation" feats, of which, they can only do the damage without the additional effects (like elementals, stun, etc) brought by those "charge" feats. At the same time, even if they are natural equipment, if they have "activation", they are also barred, because the idea is to lock all enhancement thingy (aka includes charge or activation coz those kinda mean you're unlocking something special). The technological aspects here are pretty much GA, SCOPE, simulex, and other after market purchases that give those stat thingies.

Additionally, if used against an opponent with an organoid, is that intended to disable an ability that may be 'ongoing' (ie lasts multiple rounds) or block the ability to activate said ability?

so in lieu with Khon's earlier notes, instead of stopping, perhaps it should be restriction on the ability. Since most noid abilities come into play upon fusion, you can't really time it well. Hence, best to put restriction to those abilities during the round. And since the theme is to make everything go back to normal, aka, neutralize, then, I suppose restricting whatever effects of the fused noid's ability to 10-15% output (whether they be for reduction, increase, or both). This way, it's not totally stopping it, but also affecting them.

But with the previous 'ability effects Ocelot itself', wouldn't the ability preclude ocelots ability? (like the idea, a 'noid hunter 'noid, just the wording sounds like it'd be a self-defeating ability (absolutely MAD! MAD I say!)

Lol. that's from the original write-up, right? then, it that case, it was pretty much talking about the passive bonuses from the noid fusion. you know how there's repair, power, agility, so on. So if the original idea was approved, it would rob the passive bonuses of all noids fusing with the zoid, including ocelot's bonus. And because ocelot's ability is to return to the origin itself, which if we consider is more of a "restriction" than an "increase or reduction %", and not an attack/defense mechanism itself, it goes on.

I guess, the idea was like brawl fight with the basic of the basics.

gotcha, a knife fight but with sponges instead of knives!

So... with the new suggestion I put there, think it'll be better?

I have sat on this for weeks, reading it over and over and over and I'm sorry but no matter how many times I reread it, this is many problems. One of which is that there is still more than 2 effects.

- All Natural/Assault equipment is returned to base value
- Inability to perform Charging Feats (which blocks many Zoids from natural abilities)
- "Removal" (albeit temporary) of reductions/enhancements, treatments, and coatings.

Even at a single round, that 3rd effect is really powerful. With how much it is by itself, I would argue that THAT effect alone is enough. Added with the other 2 listed and this goes beyond the limit of 2 effects.

Personally, I would say either the first is redundantly listed or an effect on its own. Blocking any charging is too much because it does negate MOST Zoids core abilities. If it was strictly on add-on gear that is one thing, or if it was the sole power of an Organoid.

To be frank, the rule needs to be clarified as "A single ability that can be two-fold." (Example being Claw's additional damage reduction that preempts all other DR, or Airazor's passive Dodge bonus that works even if I do not dodge.)

What this reads as "A trump card to anyone who plays defensively." because what it implies is anyone with Shields are screwed. Anyone uses Quicker Than The Eye, screwed. Anyone with Stealth, screwed. Anyone with Nanotech, screwed.

I do not see ANYWAY to make it balanced. While it is a COOL idea, it is fundamentally broken. I'm sorry, but I have to say "No."

I respect your opinion. However, I would still like to develop the idea. While everyone has a certain play-style, be it defensive, aggressive, long-range, etc, it shouldn't be an issue that targeting a certain play-style makes it unacceptable. In this case, it's not like I'm particularly targeting anything or anyone, just the concept of "returning to a primal" sort of play-style.

Well, when I think about it, the first way of writing it does seem redundant that way because it is explaining what happens... so I suppose, if I were to reword it properly, it would be:

"Removes all forms of enhancements and reductions for the duration."

It still goes with the theme of returning to being primal, though it will be open to interpretations if not properly explained. As such, wouldn't listing what would be affected more efficient?

Besides, I don't think it will be a problem being a "trump card against defensive players". I mean, everyone has their own styles of playing. Also by being affected by this effect will not make the fused zoid have everything while the others don't. It puts them on an even playing field by having those things locked. Coz it pretty much aims to be a way to bring things to a primal even field.

If it were to "return to primal", then I could see locking out ranged attacks. Restricting it to melee weapons. But that leads into "How does your Organoid affect someone else".

For instance:
If it were to lock your ranged attacks and enhance melee by 25% additionally, that makes sense. As it would make your Zoid more feral.

Zoids are warriors by nature and warriors fight with everything they have. No holds barred.

You have said that you wanted it to be an Organoid hunter of sorts, why not seek to disrupt JUST the skill of the foes Organoid for a round? Make it an attack that has to connect. Granting a way for the foe to avoid a debuff (because I am 100% against a free auto-hit of any sort) but if failed then they suffer. And if you hit a foe prior to fusion, then they can't fuse for that turn?

That said, as is. I am still saying "No". Because it just isn't balanced. The pros and cons are not in line. Because again, the effect (by its wording) blocks Boosters, QTTE Feat, Shields and several other items.

But if it needs to hit to activate, it becomes less than even those after market purchases that automatically take effect

What After Market items are instant debuffs that strip someone of all beneficial effects?

First of all, when I meant that there are after market purchases that do not need to hit to debuff, i'm talking like the stealth. But in the same argument, if you look at it, there are abilities that provide auto-effect of reductions, enhancements without having to hit or charge, you simply activate them. There are also some abilities that passively put them into effect, without need of mentioning at all, or even preempting. Most of these are towards the "enhancement" so it's a bit unfair to say it can't be done in the opposite way, as of removing those enhancements.

Second, just saying that this should not pass because it goes against defensive play is quite strange. It almost seem as if it's not allowed to go against various play styles. But in reality, there are many play styles and each often become the opposite of the other, which is normal. It does tend to sound like an anti-after market equipment ability, but that's nothing new if you have preset battle rules that say "no after market equipment".

Third, by also being affected by it, I don't see how it creates any large gap of an insurmountable situation. If anything, both sides are still on an even playing field, and you just have new restrictions, that's all. Unless this was taken as a particular threat, I don't see how there is greater way to point out that there is Balance in this ability than the fact that it affects ALL involved (i.e. the fused zoid also get stripped of all forms of its enhancements, reductions, unnaturals, so on). I mean, there are abilities out there that straightforwardly says A becomes way stronger and faster than B because of circumstances involving statistics. This particularly ability simply says, "Nope, both parties or everyone for that matter, are gonna be suspended for the duration. No power-tripping."

Fourth, it actually allows for more creativity and strategizing now. If anything, this ability would make it more fun and even when facing off with new people who can't overcome powergaps because of all the enhancements and reductions and other unnatural biases that take effect in the field.

I have to confess that, after studying the game and asking several questions in the chat, the rules in general are pretty half-baked and delightfully seem to strongarm players into role-playing their actions more than power gaming their builds. That being said, I can't understand how the current incarnation of this ability would be particularly unbalanced, let alone outright broken or out of context.

With the exception of a few corner builds, like say a double-evasion triggered on a passive that bypasses comparable item limits coupled with an after-market stealth system that allows for nigh invincibility, the drawback of affecting everyone including the user with changing their play-style temporarily not only would keep the strategy of combat from becoming too routine, it would also be fairly fun to use in plot scenarios and fits well with the zoid world. I would clarify that it should do something like render all non-inherent weaponry and passive equipment disabled while deployed, since it sounds more like a rage inducing emp, but that is just my attempt to clean it up for compatibility. If the duration and drowning out enemy Organoid use sounds too mean, consider that this is essentially cancelling out the user's Organoid buffs as well, making it an even playing field with a very slight edge for the "hunter" due to the more offensive nature and preparation that can be taken ahead of time.

The only other issue I can see is addressing the nature of why it shouldn't be a "hit to trigger" ability... in which case I invite you to conceptualize outrunning a poisonous gas or nuclear radiation. Both types of weapons can do damage, and there isn't a combat roll out there that will save you from the effects, so it makes sense that you wouldn't be able to move away to prevent the effect... kind of like, say, the Radiant CAS's blinding light ability which also doesn't seem to offer up a countermeasure for evasion?

Oookay...Dakitten, this is not the place to offer conjecture based on 'your experience', especially given that you have more or less ignored the fact this is a Role-playing game. If we went with power-gaming builds, it'd be paper-scissors-rock for who wins in a battle, basically a cardgame. card A has X power, card B has X-1 power, card B loses.**

The 'reason' this ability could be construed as broken is because of the total effect. Organoids are limited to one or two effects FOR A REASON. What the 'Return to the Origin' ability does is basically say "You lose EVERYTHING.", which unfortunately means everything tacked on after-market.

"This results in the removal of ALL FORMS of enhancements, reductions, or unnatural improvements (however it is called) throughout the duration."

I'm not going to go too hard on this, but its ability would preclude it from actually being activated. Since its effect would have to nullify itself to function....how could it work?

Fundamentally what this list is made up of:
Nanotech Armor
Changeable Armor Systems
Bolt-on Armor (its an unnatural improvement)
Any after-market weapon.
aftermarket defensive systems (Guardian Angel, Hex shield, Stealth System)
Organoid abilities (in total. Not just the boost effect, but the ability AND the resurrection ability).
Defensive abilities: for example, the Konig Wolf smoke screen (reduction)
Enhancements/counters: using the Konig again, the headgear.

Now...this introduces a gray area with Evolutions, since evolved weapons are considered to be 'integrated' during evolution, meaning they are integral parts of the zoid and theoretically effected by this ability*.

However...
I like the idea of the ability, if it were simply something like a software override or something which scrambled the Z-OS that it locked out certain things (being specific here), neato burrito. Probably still a bit OP.

I think where the issues lie is that it isn't exactly clear on what EXACTLY this does. You're saying 'negates XYZ' and as I just wrote with the list of what is effected, it sort of gets a bit...well... broken.
Now if you said, as Dakitten suggested, Rage mode, the argument would be "isn't that god-modding?" because you're taking control of another players actions/roleplay for your own benefit, which historically has been 'a bad thing'. There should be a way to work it out so it is acceptable...but realistically, anything that effects another player should have a long hard look taken at it to ensure that it IS acceptable to all parties, not just you.



*: This means that if used, only 3 zoids would be able to function with minor setbacks.

**: There is a reason we ask for roleplay in battles. If someone writes "I did this and that and the next thing" and someone else gave us the condensed works of shakespeare in combat with robots, guess who the judge is more likely to go with? Stealth Systems aren't a nigh-invunerability mechanic (I know, having used and abused the system and won/lost on it), they're perceived as it because of exactly the 'powergaming' mentality. Get in a battle and see what happens 'on the sharp end' as it were.

Hmmm.... Makes me wanna go back to Noid Hunter Supremacy idea and simply locked out all noid abilities, bonuses, and even proficiencies. But that sounds stale.

Also, I can't help but think the unless there is a clearly defined image of a GREAT ADVANTAGE to one party, that it is not broken. I mean, it affects everyone. So it's not like only a few are locked out. From the way the argument is going, it is only considered broken because it gets to lock out a lot of equipment, and I'm like.... so? When you start from GL1 and no money, you don't have money to purchase equipment to use. Which leads to the thought process that it could just be a debate against people who rely heavily on equipment, but that's why it's called having different play-styles. So if you're up against someone who can foil your play style, you simply want to shut them? And if we do give credit to role-play and strategy, then this would allow a diverse and challenging way for rping battles.

On that note on the evolved weapons as considered integrated (as you wrote "integral parts of the zoid"), does that mean they are considered natural? If so, why can't they be accessed with CAS? Just because of the fact that CAS is placed over the zoid as a layer? That can't be right. I mean, CAS are outfitted per zoid structure and if the evolved parts are now integral, it should follow the shape and form of the evolved zoid with its integrated parts.

Ah, but really, let's go back to the discussion here. The arguments on why this is seemingly considered broken for that fact that it affects after-market purchase list... is a deal-breaker? Perhaps it is if it only affects the enemies, but I have been saying that it affects everyone, including the fuzed zoid. So everyone is on the same page, same restriction. That's not really setting up one to be god-like while the rest are puny.

On that note on the evolved weapons as considered integrated (as you wrote "integral parts of the zoid"), does that mean they are considered natural? If so, why can't they be accessed with CAS?

Kael, that is EXACTLY why most of us were AGAINST Evos and CAS working together. However, certain people (no longer affiliated with the site) ignored this advisement and made it a grey zone. Strictly spoken, if it evolves into the Zoid, it becomes part of the base model. Period. Frankly, I want to go back into the CAS rules, fine tune them like Blaylock and I were before the board returned to the ether nd restrict them from use with evolutions for this very reason. Hell, I am still of the opinion CAS should be for the Zoids that have canon CAS and no additional versions outside of canon.

But that is a topic for another thread.

Honestly, Val hit the nail on the head. A debuff that hits with no margin for failure, no counter of any sort AND is of this magnitude does fall into the realm of "God Modding". ANYTHING that you do that forces another person's character to act outside of their control is God Modding.

I'm sorry, but I have given my reasons repeatedly. I have to stay with "No. This is a cool idea and love the idea.... for an NPC. For a PC it is broken, it is God Modding and it is not going to happen.

So, here is my challenge. Take the idea, scrap all you have for it OUTSIDE of the core idea and start over. Don't tweak it, rebuild from the ground up. I had to with Claw for the very same reason. It was too much power and too many effects. I remade it from the ground up 4 times before I came the version I have today and, honestly, I love this version most.

Don't give up on the idea. Take your time and start it over. I want to see what you can do with it. I know you can do it, so... do it. I'll be waiting.

Wait, wait, wait.

Exactly how is it God-Modding? Restrictions isn't god-modding unless they specifically state what you should do. But in this case, you can still come up with variables on what and how to do it.

Sorry, but I'm confused. If this was a defensive type ability, it would be a lot easier, wouldn't it? But because it is a debuff type, it's hard. Is that it?

Pardon my looking, but since you mentioned your noid:

Claw looks normal. Airazor gets the 50% dodge/eva chance before any other reduction input, so at best that would be 100% or more, or a 2-chance eva/dodge.


And I know that all things go through revisions, but there is just something wrong with the system if debuffs aren't allowed from the basis that they are considered god-modding because they restrict. I believe the system needs to be more specific on the do's and don'ts in order to be more meticulous without appearing power-tripping. Because by just saying a 2-in-1 ability or something, it gives out a lot of options. The fact that this ability is all about "removal of enhancements and reductions" should just be considered 1 ability. Because you are just "removing".

I wonder, if this was an Anti-After-Market Purchase Ability, would it have the same problem?

Actually, let me ask. If this ability was allowed.... who would benefit it? Who would not benefit it?

Because for some reason I think there's a misunderstanding here or people have not seen that it's been updated. Not to mention I keep saying that everyone is affected which means no one is advantageous.

When fused with a zoid, Ocelot’s ability is thrown out throughout the entire field, creating a shift of the energy particles within the space. Upon doing so, all conditions are neutralised to their raw forms – elemental, technological, and unnatural enhancements slip into a disrupted state, thus rendering them unusable throughout the duration. This results in the removal of ALL FORMS of enhancements, reductions, or unnatural improvements (however it is called) throughout the duration.
This affects everything and everyone, including the zoid this organoid is fused with.

- So we all know what is being referred to

The problem is that the actual EFFECT forces other peoples writing to be automatically nullified. Which is taking control of another persons character without permission....ie God Modding.

You, in this instance, being a participant in a battle, would use this organoid ability to wipe out what your opponent has done. Effectively forcing it to fit your own narrative, thereby taking control of their character for yourself, for the duration of said ability.

Or worse, you'd use this as an 'I Win' function. Say you're fighting me, I popped amaterasu and went ham, it all hit and its basically lights out, your organoid activates, you get healed, my organoid gets nullified, my nanotech gets nullified, stealth system/storm walker get nullified, my coating is ignored....you get where this is going?

So You're back up, healed and boosted from the fusion, despite your ability saying that it 'affects everyone' (I get the feeling that winds up selective though), I'm left with nothing to stop attacks because NOTHING is counted anymore, and you get to have a giggle.


Now you talk about the evasion thing on Airrazor...heres the thing, I dunno about other judges, but I look at it as Quality of Writing Vs Chance. If its good writing, I'll look long and hard and think about it, otherwise its flip a coin, roll a dice.
Say you get accuracy reduced to 25%, thats 1 in 4 to hit...so you flip 4 coins, whatever side is picked (say heads) that gets 3...it hits since its 50/50 heads or tails. Or use a dice...whatever.
I also handle it by going "What is the highest evasion stat available". So if they're using a stealth system and its the best stat...it gets used. you could combine them, but it doesn't make a lot of sense.
If you're invisible...why would you put out smoke? how is smoke going to make being invisible any better? logic dictates it would be WORSE.



Now you keep saying what amounts to "It levels the playing field". It really, really doesn't. What it does is turn everything on its ear for your own benefit, you've got the evo, its likely you'll avoid other evo's (not to mention on the balance of probabilities that you'd take more 'regular' players on). As stated earlier, the "I win" function,

Now...you say its '1 effect', but it isn't. Ifi t stopped ranged weapons, thats one effect, if it stopped armor from working, one effect, defensive....etc etc. What you've got is a bunch of 'little effects' hidden under one giant effect.

the precise wording is

ALL FORMS of enhancements, reductions, or unnatural improvements

please note the underlined words.

Enhancements: 1 overall effect, consists of many effects
(SCOPE,Guardian Angel, NT armor, coatings etc)
reductions: 1 overall effect, consists of many effects
(Stealth System, natural zoid abilities, hex shield, armor coatings etc)
unnatural improvements: 1 overall effect, consists of many effects
(Rifles, machineguns, missiles, cannons, armor plating etc)

just for that, 14 ACTUAL effects right there.

Its a neat idea...but I think the reality is that it is simply TOO powerful, too all encompassing. There is no real limit to its use, no clearly defined purpose besides completely breaking the spirit of the rules and screwing other players. If you want it for an RP ability, by all means. But for a straight up battle ability, put yourself in our shoes, would you be fine with us having something like this? Would you have no issues facing someone who can just snap their fingers and throw your posts out the window?


Now if you're referring to the QTSDU thing, the 500 RPC, that was added by people who aren't here any more and GAVE THEMSELVES THE DAMN THING. It shouldn't even still be around. It was a god mod item designed solely to screw other players. So going "Oh this is pretty much that" is a very silly argument.